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The Facts Behind the SPA (Read 22350 times)
Reply #9 - Aug 28th, 2011 at 11:17pm

deepak patel   Offline
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Please share something
new about spa thearpy
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thanks for making this question?
so that we put some new tips and tricks regarding spa ...
 
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Reply #8 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 11:35am

Mitch   Offline
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Important Thermal/Full foam difference, especially for Europeans.
The statement, "Uses more electricity than thermally sealed" understates the case since sometimes more electricity could be a plus.
The full foam design wastes electricity compared to thermally sealed.  Usage feels better when you know you're wasting as little as possible.  This is why people feel good driving hybrids.
Europeans should appreciate that when enjoying the powerful jets, you know that the heat energy of the motors is used to heat and insulate the water, rather than simply being dissipated to the outside air to keep the motors cool, as for full foam.  The amount is significant, since the motors and the heaters use roughly the same amount of energy.
Even though the percentage on time of the jets is small compared to total heat time, nevertheless, the time when you are actually IN the spa is the time of waste for the full foam design.
 

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Reply #7 - Jun 15th, 2011 at 6:03am

deepak patel   Offline
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yeah u r right...
 
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Reply #6 - Jun 8th, 2011 at 11:44pm

deepak patel   Offline
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spa is massage therapy which regulates the bloods of body so that our body should be fit and fine ...
 
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Reply #5 - May 1st, 2011 at 10:25am

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The next thing that seems to be a problem with spas is using improper controls with undersized relays on circuits to the components.

The solution is simple;

Use the correct size of power relays to any device and as in the case of Haven Spas use over-sized contactors and relays to insure the absolute longest life.

In our American spas we use 30 amp relays and contactors to drive our high horsepower pumps.
Relays are rated by horse power because inductive motors use a lot of starting current.  You do not want to "starve" a motor while it is starting of enough current to overcome the inertia and get the motor up to speed as quickly as is possible. The more resistance in the switches the longer it takes to start because of voltage drops when you put too much current on a device or too small of a wire size.

Some motors use over 80 amps for a split second during the start of the motor on high speed.  This is why the running amps are secondary to the actual inductive horsepower rating on a relay.

On our European models we use from 9.2 amp 2.5 actual horse power to 12.4 Amps 4 HP, with super efficient motors.  We also use stainless steel motor shafts to prevent rust.  The motors are sealed and have large fans to cool them to match the high standards of CE certification. They also have "class F" insulation on the motor windings. That is the highest temperature rated winding insulation there is.

These motors are "worthy" of respect and to be taken care of properly.  It is almost  sacrilegious to destroy a motor like this with improper pump size, poor plumbing, and incorrect contact switches or wire size to operate them.  I find it disrespectful to design in self-destruction on any piece of equipment.  It is also against any form of environmental consciousness to just waste things by destroying them and putting them in the trash when they have a life expectancy of 12 years nominally,  if and only when used properly. 


By running them with extremely efficient plumbing that does not cause any extra drag on the water flow, the pumps run cooler and they run very smooth.  You cannot hear any plumbing surges or restrictions. They sound like music to my ears with continual smooth water flow and no pulsations at all. The motors start fast and run smooth.  Isn't that what it is all about?

Combine that extreme plumbing with the extreme electrical efficiency by doing the same thing electrically with over-sized switches (relays and contactors) and over-sized wires, so the pumps motors are never "starving" for starting or running power. We give the pumps and motors what they need to run with the most power and efficiency without any of the "normal" over taxing of any parts. 

It takes special care in construction to do this.  It takes a special type of craftsmanship to make a product this well. I call it ethical, conscious and objective awareness manufacturing.  It offers the best respect to our customers to do this for them.



I really don't understand this industry tendency to use absolute minimum sized switches and restrictions on the plumbing and then expect failure as being normal.

In other words when normal industry, run of the mill, so called, "high quality" spas break down after 5 years of normal use and good water care, that is "normal" and "acceptable".
Why is that normal? Why is that acceptable?

To me it is either based on ignorance or just to save a few Euros/Dollars in the cost to make them.

My take on it is money.  If you save 5% on the cost of electrical parts, in order to just get past the warranty and your yearly sales are 14,000,000 Euros, then you have made an extra profit of 700,000 Euros at the cost of having your product fail much sooner than necessary, normally just after the warranty is over, and continue to ruin the already bad reputation of spas in the USA.

We are not going to allow that on our spas that we make. We want to have the continued reputation in Europe as we have in the USA of the most durable spas ever made.

We already have the reputation of spas lasting for 12 years running on the original equipment and a warranty rate of less than 2%, in the USA, by simply following normal engineering and design principles that are available to anyone.

This is why we offer a 10 year warranty on our spas, parts and labor. We don't expect to spend money on repairs, because we spend the money on making a better (best made) product. 

We don't want to be part of "normal" , so we stand alone on making spas that will endure and outperform anyone else's spas. 

In every area of spa design we excel over any competitor. 

We have the data on energy efficiency in that our spas use less energy to maintain the water quality and temperature, and while the spas are open and running we have the energy of the motors all going back into the spa water as heat. We have the only thermally sealed spa, using modern "space age" insulation techniques, in the industry. 

We have the largest intake manifolds on our spa pumps and we avoid all the turbulence on the intake by how we design in a clean entry into the pump wet end.

We use the cleanest and most robust plumbing to the water jets.  WE get over 97% of the output of a water pump to the jets.  If the pump is rated for 150 GPM/19 PSI at zero head loss (with no pipe turns on level plane), then we get 147 GPM at 19 PSI to the water jets. This is because we exceed and oversize all of the plumbing and we get more water flow than any "normal" spa using the same pumps. By using the almost perfect intakes we get more water flow at zero head to start with. There is almost no resistance to the intake.

By testing we have determined that the minimum pressure needed to get really great therapy is 15 PSI with a 9.53 MM orifice jet nozzle.  Then we optimize our "hot seats" (the main captains chair therapy seat) to have 19 PSI to these extra large size jets.  We never use the cheap bullet (Euro Jets or Cluster jets) jets on the backs of the human body.

 

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Reply #4 - Apr 29th, 2011 at 11:13am

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Typically spa companies will not consider the best possible way to allow water to flow from the pump's pressure side to the jets.

What is ideal is the least restrictions possible. The way to achieve that is very linear logic and follows basic and advanced hydraulic engineering.
Here is our design rules that we follow exactly:

1/ No, ZERO, 90 degree sharp turns allowed. We use only ONE sweep with a radius of at least 3 inches on any pump.

2/ No Diverters directly after the pump's pressure outlet. Diverter valves can restrict the water flow from "dynamic head loss" by up to 35% on high HP water pumps. Analogy: You do not want to stuff 10LB of water flow in a 5LB bag. Or don't put rocks in your car's exhaust pipes then expect it to work properly.

3/ There are no turns, NO TEE's in the direct flow to the jet manifolds.  We do not split water flow using any form of restrictions. To do this requires careful design considerations and we even adjust the manifold positions on the jets.

4/ The manifolds have different outputs of water pressure depending on where the manifold outlet is.  If you understand this then you can position the right manifold outlet to the correct jets for specific pressure therapy considerations.  For instance: we put the highest known pressure outlets to the lower back, because that area can take a lot more pressure and needs more pressure.  The mid back needs less, so use the outlets that naturally have less pressure on that area.

5/ We allow for any "sonic" wave patterns that may develop in the plumbing.  We make sure all the possible areas where any pulsating sound wave can cause any back pressure in the opposite direction to the water flow.  Most spa "engineers" (if you want to call them engineers) don't even understand this principle.

For example in a two cycle motor cycle engine they use what is called "extractor" exhaust that uses sonic waves produced at high RPM's of the engine to actually pull the exhaust out and away from the engine. Extractor pipes are recognizable by the fact that they are tapered pipes, like a funnel going wider as it goes to the exit of the exhaust. Then is has a sound "reflector" at the end that causes the pulse of sound to feed back and "extract" the exhaust.

In spas we do not want any "reflectors" of any sound waves to cause the water to have any back pressure at all.  No water waves or ripples going in the opposite direction allowed.

5/ Use solid pipe on the pressure side as much as possible. We only use flex pipe to make smooth transitions around a corner then we go "straight" as much as is physically possible inside a spa cabinet.  Straight pipe has the least restrictions possible.  It is like shooting an arrow in a stream line fashion. The shortest path is a straight line, and the solid pipe is the smoothest pipe there is.

6/ When we make our cheapest models, and we use a diverter valve concession.  In order to make a one pump spa that rips out with therapy, we use a special designed plumbing system with a diverter.  That valve is "down" on the plumbing "tree". So that it does not affect the output of the jet pump. The worst thing competitor's spas do is to use the diverter directly after the jet pump.  We will have several jets running "all the time" the pump is on and then split the end run between 6 jets and 6 jets in a very even distribution.
The way you know that a valve is installed correctly is that you can turn it with one finger when the jet pump is on high speed. That way you know the valve has no restrictions and is used way below it's maximum flow design.

We literally destroy all the competition, in comparison to water flow and jet pressure, when it comes to jet pressure from the least wasted horse power.  We get the maximum possible water flow and do not waste any flow by unnecessary restrictions that are common in all the competitors' spas.

7/ The end result is that the jet pumps run in their "sweet spot". The sweet spot is where the manufacturer of the pump recommends the pumps operate in terms of water flow to the back pressure.  All centrifigul pumps require a proper back pressure to make them run at the optimum "power" output.  If you drop the pressure and increase the water flow you actually lose power.   Power or the actual therapy at the jets is measured by the proper back pressure to give the maximum intensity.  We control the back pressure to maintain proper power transference to the water jets.
The jets are the back pressure and nothing else in the plumbing line is allowed to cause back pressure.

8/ Gaps in plumbing connections.  There is a problem of turbulence when there is any extra distance of "gap" between glue joints or fittings. To insure this we do not use any hand cut pipes even the flex is cut on a square saw. They are cut perfectly square so that any joins are as tight as is possible. 
Most companies use hand cutters and cut flex pipe at off angles with large gaps in the joins. Every gap causes some extreme dynamic hydraulic head loss.  It is like putting reduced size pipe or restrictions in the plumbing.

When I think that people are still buying inferior poorly designed spas today and are getting this crappy workmanship sold as "quality", you can see why the spa industry doesn't like my educational approach to spas.

If you don't know any of this, is "ignorance" really bliss?

Now you know some of the main reasons why our equipment outlasts all of the competitors.  We run the equipment in the most smooth possible ways. The pumps never pulsate. There is no way for them to pulsate, because all possible ways for restrictions and any sound waves gaps, and wasted turns are eliminated.

We are the only company who does this.  Our reputation with our customers is the best. We have the longest time between any repairs of any spa company on earth and we have the longest warranty of now 10 years on all the equipment and plumbing. This is because we have the records of 10 years average, between any needed costly repairs. 

If everything is running smoothly, it just lasts much longer. We are the experts at spa design and no other company has the wherewithal to do this.  They just do not know or they don't care or they have no real understanding of spa engineering.  I think it is all of the above.

"Stupid is as stupid does!" Forrest Gump

« Last Edit: May 1st, 2011 at 10:25am by HavenMade Administrator »  

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Reply #3 - Apr 29th, 2011 at 9:08am

HavenMade Administrator   Offline
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People are often confused when they look at spas. The advertising as far as I can tell, never really matches the reality of these devices, until you come across our Haven Spas.

In Haven Spas, we are not motivated by cost cutting, we actually use the laws of physics to the best possible outcome.  We use every modern part that improves water flow.

For instance in our plumbing we use way over-sized intake manifolds on our jet pumps.  We feed dual 2 inch branch lines, rated for 235 gallons per minute (way over-sized for 150 GPM pumps), into a full sized 2.5 inch manifold. This huge manifold feeds the water with the absolute least restrictions.  Then we allow a continuous straight alingment of water flow into the front of the impeller.  The water goes in straight and this stops all turbulence before the water interacts with the impeller.  Other spas will have utterly turbulent water coming in at off angles into the front of the impeller. In order for good impeller pressurization you need both momentum and water flow directly into the impeller, not on any side angles.   They do poor designs such as having only a 2 inch 90 degree or even a sweep directly on the intake with no consideration about turbulence.   Straight line into the pumps is the best with way over-sized intakes, so that is what we do.

Using “people” entering a door as a representative example of this: It is similar to having to force people walking backwards to go into a door when they are heading away from the door or going across the door sideways..

In our "doorways" entering the pump all the "people" (representing water molecules) are facing the door and have momentum in the direction straight into the door already to enter.  And the doorway is huge, too large for the job, to insure absolutely the least absolutely possible restrictions.  It can’t be done any better than what we do.

There is only momentum of water flow in Haven Spas in a direction that is straight into the impeller. And the water inlets are at the bottom of the spa with the most natural “head” of water.

This photo below is from a major competitors site, showing a horrible angle on the intake of the pumps.  This is typical and seen on nearly ever brand I have examined.  You never do this as a hydraulic engineer. This tells me they don't have any hydraulic engineers or if they do they are really stupid people.  Typically, in a full foam spa they have to stuff the equipment in a small space and they never seem consider that this is a bad idea to make such sharp angles going into or out the pumps.
...


I am not showing our spas for the sake of stopping the competitors from their continual stealing of our designs.  It takes a lot of work to make the plumbing as large and clean as possible.  It takes planning to get only smooth pipes and smooth transitions.

The competitors seem have no clue about hydraulics or they would not make spas with such inefficient plumbing. Or they don't like to spend any money to make them better.

The results in our spas is that we get more than 30% more water flow from the same exact equipment as used in the industry. I really dislike the idea of wasting this energy as well.  If you purchase a 3 HP pump, why would you not want to get 3HP of water flow out of it.  If a pump we use is rated at 19 PSI (1.31 Bar) and 150 Gallons per minute (568 Liters Per Minute), then we get 147 to 148 GPM. (556 LPM) We do this by exceeding the standard rating on the pump by our intake with zero restrictions and our exit or pressure side plumbing that allows only the jets to cause the needed back pressure.

Pumps run in what is known as their “sweet spot” and it is a point where the maximum “power” is transferred by having the back pressure match the power curve of the jet pump. This means that you can have more water volume listed, but if the back pressure is less than 10 PSI there is not much power being transferred to the bathers back for therapy.  For this reason we list both the pressure and the LPM flow as well.

According to ALL the hydraulic engineers I have discussed this with, (and all of them are not in the spa industry) the "worst thing to do to a centrifugal pump is restrict the suctions."  Period! 

"Life is tough, but it is tougher if you are stupid." John Wayne
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2011 at 5:18pm by HavenMade Administrator »  

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Reply #2 - Apr 29th, 2011 at 1:02am
bigjake   Ex Member

 
Thanks for providing these straightforward facts on the SPA
 
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Reply #1 - Mar 30th, 2011 at 11:23pm

HavenMade Administrator   Offline
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Source
http://spaspecialist.com/jun99.html

http://www.spaspecialist.com/haven_spas_in_general.html

http://www.spaspecialist.com/Wood_VS_Metal.html

http://www.spaspecialist.com/FullFoamVSThermallySealed.html



Summary
This page explains all the functions of the jacuzzi frame and highlights all the possible designs of the jacuzzi construction (frame) and also highlights the pro’s and con’s of each design and finally explains the best design.


What is the task of the construction WHY
To hold the spa together
To contain thousands of pounds or kilograms of water, which is called a “live load”.
To supply support for all the equipment.
To supply soundproofing (or lack of)
To hold up under normal use and withstand the environmental elements.
Insulate the spa water from heat loss.




Possible designs are HOW
Framework Of Spas:
Wood Framework 44x70, 44x 90,  44 x 142 (all millimeter)
Wood Framework 38x38 MM (USA 2x2 lumber)
Metal Frames
Plastic Polyethylene
  ABS/Acrylic with Foam Structure.

Insulation of spas
Full foam; filling the cabinet with foam, except where the equipment is.
Thermal Pane,  foam the shell and a little insulation on the outer cabinet wall.
Thermally Sealed with high level of insulation in the outer walls.




Pro’s Wood Framework with stress engineering
Wood has a very long life, over 100 years normally.
Wood has tremendous strength for its weight. (over 680kg per  6.45 sq cm vertical on pine or fir)
Wood has natural insulation and sound proofing value. (R 1.25 for 25 MM of thickness)


Con’s Wood
Lightweight wood that is not structurally engineered is weak. Typically 2in x 2in from America or 38x38 MM European sizes.
Wood can rot if not treated correctly with stains, pressure treating, or paints.
Wood can absorb moisture if not isolated from water puddling.



Pro’s  Metal (the metal frames as presently used in spas)
Less costly production costs
Easy to assemble from pre-made parts


Con’s Metal
Lack of strength, lacking any structural advantage
Galvanic corrosion and rust, shorter life


Pro’s Plastic
Polyethylene is cheap to manufacture used in Roto Molded spas.
Doesn’t rust or rot.
Flexible and can be used on soft ground.



Con’s Plastic
Weaker
Not visually attractive. Polyethylene spas are cheap looking.


Pros ABS/Acrylic with Foam Structure
Cheapest way to manufacture with acrylic surface.
The most profitable for the manufacture.


Cons ABS/Acrylic With Foam Structure
Extremely difficult to repair leaks in plumbing buried in foam.
ABS and Acrylic have 133% dissimilar expansion rate, and will develop surface cracks in the shell. Must be used only in moderate temperature climates and kept out of the sun.
Close to impossible to do any upgrades, like adding jets or equipment.
Short life span on shell.  15 years maximum.
When the surface cracks it leaks, because the backing is thin.
Can’t be formed into reverse molded shapes.  Not neck collars, no V necks.


Pros Acrylic with bonded fiberglass
Proven record of being the most durable and longest lasting over thirty years of usable life.
Most versatile for forming into shapes, like neck collars and “reverse molding”.
Old, bonded fiberglass, spas can have surface cracks and not ever leak. 
Fully repairable if damaged.

Old Fiberglass, with bonded resins/glass, spas can be upgraded and the equipment will not out last the shell.
Shell can last up to 30 years if you keep the cabinet maintained.

Pros of Full Foam Insulation
Cheap to do, requires the least amount of labor.
Adds some level of insulation to the spa.


Cons of Full Foam
Difficult to repair, any repair.
Equipment is not insulated and can have expensive freeze damage in winter if spa stops running.
Can not  be upgraded without extreme expense.
Uses more electricity than thermally sealed




Our Haven Spas Construction
Wooden frames are used similar to house construction. Has the history in USA of lasting longer than any other spa construction method.
Pressure treated lumber at bottom to protect from both infestation and wood damage from the environment.
The Shell, vessel (where seating area is) is made of highest grade of acrylic with durable bonding coat and layers of fiberglass, similar to a high end boat.
Cabinet is screwed and glued with modern adhesives for maximum strength and longest life.
Cabinet is sealed with rubber gaskets, so it is as air tight as possible for maximum containment of heat to save energy.
Outer cabinet is 22 MM thick laminated high quality exterior grade plywood with siding similar to quality house construction.  This stops any distortion or warping.
Paint is the highest quality exterior grade with 15 year life expectancy before refinish.
Multiple layers of air chambers and modern “space age” insulation materials and methods.  Conduction, convection and  radiant barriers are used.
Bottom cabinet is sealed and when placed outside in open areas it is placed on specialized isolation blocks to protect from water infiltration.
Thermally sealed design allows for upgrades and easiest of repairs. No foam to interfere with repairs.
Thermally sealed design stops cold air from freezing and damaging plumbing and equipment.
 

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Mar 29th, 2011 at 8:04am
Lance   Ex Member

 
For those of you who are considering purchasing a hot tub or home spa for your home, you might want to know some of the basic functions of these products before you make your final purchase. For the most part, all spas work on the same principle. There may be a few variations of the method, but they all generally use the same functions in order to produce the results.

The process begins with a basic tub. Next, the tub is filled with water, heated and kept warm using a heater. A good heater is a critical component in the hot tub process because it regulates the temperature of the water and ensures the water remains warm when in use. The hot water is pumped through the jets which direct the water flow and produce the massaging effect hot tubs are known for. In addition, air can also be pumped through the jets in order to create a bubbling effect contributing to the massage-like feeling.
 
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