Sundance Cameo VS Haven Fallriver Gold, SS6XL model with Twin Master Massage
series.
There are no large flat areas on
the top lip of the CameoTM.
It is uncomfortable to sit up on the edge of the spa. So
they put in a high "cool down seat" that only one bather can
use. (If you want leg and calf therapy that is suburb
you need to sit on the side of the haven Fallriver lounger
and put your feet down in front of the Master Massage.
Or you can sit above the "six jet seat" and get
awesome massage that way.) The highest priced model similar size to CameoTM, in our "standard" spas. We don't compare the Sundance® CameoTM to our highest end models.
When everybody else is copying each other and cutting costs to compete in a very skinny market today, we continue with high end products with no real competition. Unlike others who are nearly the same products being made in different brands and shapes, we simply follow engineering standards and don't follow any marketing schemes of pretty brochures and fancy names for exclusive parts.
We have been doing this "work horse" design for over 17 years and the proof is in the land fills across the country and Haven Spas have the highest resale of any brand.
My sons who both have independent spa repair businesses told me that I don't have to make our Haven Spas so good. We could reduce the quality quite a bit and still have a far superior product. They repair all brands.
In some ways HavenSpas is not promoting service work for the guys that I personally can relate to. We leave that for the other brands. After leaving California and my high tech jobs out there, I moved to Boulder Co and started working in service.
When we do get service calls on our Haven Spas and I ask the service technician what they think of the spa, words like, "high end", "quality", "obviously well designed" come from them. That is the best compliment I can get for what I design and build.
The Fallriver is roomier and more open. This comes from using well known design features and less "artsy look". It is function first then appearance next. It feels a lot bigger than the CameoTM with less protrusions in the way for moving about the spa. The Fallriver design is for humans to sit in comfortably, without confining seats and confusing detrimental controls. Haven Spas are much easier to use; turn on the pumps and turbo and use it. No extra valves to figure out and no waiting for therapy. Full sized jets in the Fallriver seat backs.
True Story: I had a lady come in to wet test and I was so busy I could not stay with her. I showed her quickly how to turn it on and I left to finish with another customer. When I came back she said how easy it was to get the jets turned on in the seat she was sitting in. She had just wet tested another brand and told me; "I could never figure out how to get the jets on full in any seat I was sitting in."
Haven Spas have many places to sit up out of the water and "cool down". The filter area is very strong and so is the collar area for sitting up, but you can sit up on the edge nicely on the flat upper edges. Rounded tops may look good to some, but they are useless to bathers. They are ergonomic "nightmares". If you don't believe me, go sit up on the edge of most spas and tell me how long you can sit there??
Too many bullet jets in the *Sundance® CameoTM. Small jets are needed if your plumbing is engineering challenged, and you can't run full pressure to larger jets.
The Fallriver is a workhorse with a thick strong shell, with 5 layers of the best resins and glass we can find. *Sundance® CameoTM is designed to look good on the inside seating and outside cabinet. The last time I checked Sundance had all sorts of PVC supports under the seats and it was filled with foam. The thickness of the shells were less than half of what Haven Spas have.
Our spas are designed to last 35 years with at least 10 years of trouble free operation, before you need any repairs. That is why the 2017 models have a 7 year warranty parts and labor on the entire spa.
The "modern" Cameo is a faint ghost of the original spas in my expert opinion. (The company has been bought and sold twice. )
You can see, obviously, the vented louvers on the side of the cabinet, wasting energy. Full foam spas must do this because the pump heat cannot (thermodynamics term) "sink" or absorbed into the shell. The foam blocks natural shell cooling. They also use cheaper materials on the cabinet.
"Cabinetry Access and Exterior Indicator Light
UV-resistant synthetic
cabinetry with tool-free Quick Release Door and exterior
indicator light make it easy to maintain your spa."
This means that
children can open the cabinet.
As my mother used to say to me when I left the door open in winter: "What's the matter with you! Were you born in a barn?!!"
Full foam is a real problem for leaks. You have to dig though masses of foam following the trail to the source. It is very time consuming. We often tell people with full foam to dig it out themselves to save the $80 per hour to have a service tech do it. Once you find the leak then call for service.
The "magic" chart on the Sundance® shows $18.14 per month for 10 cents per KWH at 101 degrees in relatively warm climates with no bather use of the spa. The advertising hides the details, like: Is the spa used? Is the spa in cold weather? From my understanding reading the CEC, it is 68 deg F average according to the standards of CEC. The cover is never opened.
"Estimated monthly cost is based on CEC test protocol for standby power consumption only. Test results measured in a controlled environment based on a kilowatt rate per hour of $0.10. {sic Try to find a place today where electricity is 10 cents a Kilowatt hour! They all do the same things to project some energy efficiency, when they are using antique designs!}Local and future energy rates, local conditions and individual use will alter these estimated monthly costs.For complete CEC test protocol and results visithttp://www.energy.ca.gov" from the sundancespas.com site.
See if you can figue this mess out?
http://www.energy.ca.gov/appliances/2013rulemaking/documents/12-AAER-2G/comments/Portable_Electric_Spas_Final_CASE_Report_12-AAER-2G_2014-05-15_TN-73027.pdf
In subzero weather the Sundance® CameoTM reports I have received are over $100 per month in the months of Jan and Feb in places like the Mountain towns of Colorado, Cheyne Wy, and Vermont. There are very few placed where electricity is 10 cents a KWH. You could finance a Haven FallriverTM and pay for it with the energy savings alone! If you were to use their, special "wrap" you get better results.
There are 12 vertical 94mmx44mm (3.7 inches x 1.73 inches); structural framing lumber. The entire bottom is also framed in deeply pressure treated lumber 145x44 (5.70 inches x 1.73 inches) sides and 44x 69 mm cross members. There is no stronger cabinet made in any production spa in the world. PERIOD! The shell is properly made to support water. It is made of 5 layers of fiberglass composite with hard bonding agents (not available in the USA. In Holland they build boats and have the most expensive yacht companies there). Water weighs 8.33 LB per gallon, so it is 3,665 LB of water (live load). Think about it! We do not use any supports under the seats. This is the only way to increase energy efficiency, by removing any interference to the DAITTM insulation.
The cabinet skirt on Haven Spas® is 21 mm thick (.826 inches) This is a very thick laminated wood and composites with extreme, 10 year warranty on the cabinet. The individual cabinet "doors" on the Fallriver, weigh at 35 KG or 77.1618 LBs each!. It is not intended for any owner to open this cabinet, unless they want to see how wonderfully it is constructed and show it off to their friends.
The cabinets are sealed shut air tight with no openings except at the bottom where the motors are. We use a rubber seal to keep all cold air out of the cabinet (similar to a refrigerator of freezer seal) and to force the heat from equipment into the spa water. No other company does this.
We guarantee 4.5 KWH per day in WINTER, standby by use at and average of 10 deg C average. This is using a full sized 90L frame motor doing the filtering. This is 20% lower than the closest competition in the EU, Hot Spring spas® with a smaller spa, less liters,very tiny circulation pump, and lower spa water volume by 100 gallons, and lower temp setting temperature and higher outside temperature.
Our tests were in WINTER months, because we are not concerned about warm weather, and we don't like the averaging idea of most spas.
And it is not objectively possible, from empirical evidence, to find a better designed product in today's market. If you can find one, please point it out to us and we will compare it.
So under exactly the same conditions as the Sundance® CameoTM "test"
The Fallriver is at $13.15 per month for standby power use to maintain 101 degrees.
The energy use charts are the most misleading information on most spas. They mix in a lot of variables so that you have no clue what it means. And you will never see them post the exact conditions of the test.
If there is any doubts about the thermal design against full foam, the testing has already been performed by University of Arizona and University of Ca. The thermally closed design always wins.
"It is pure ignorance (or limited funds) to purchase another brand of spa." James Arjuna
If you can't afford a Haven Spa, you can't afford any spa. Over the 30 years life expectancy it will outlast Sundance by 3 times with one set of major repairs, and still has better theapy than spas made today.
Our 20 year old spas still have better massage than the modern versions of Sundance spas. This is a scientific fact, and I can show you one of our old models right here in Broomfield Colorado.
We have always been about 20 years ahead in our designs for spas.
And have never lost a wet test to Sundance. The therapy of HavenSpas is simply superior because we use the same type of therapy design in our medical spas.
We use a completely sealed (there is a rubber seal kcabinet and the owners have NO reason to open it for 7 years at least. Only Electricians when it is wired or if you ever need a service call. These are extremely solid doors and they weigh about 60Lbs each. This is our fully durable cabinet that withstands all that the weather can give it.
The seal must be maintained in order to have the amazing energy savings on our spas. It is where we save you the most money.
For the safety of children we never have a door that can be opened easily. There is 230/240 V of wiring inside of spas and NEVER will any child be exposed to that with an easy open door in a Haven Spa.
Don't forget the cost to dig out that foam when it leaks. Often people will get a quote for a small leak from $600 to over $2000 in fully foamed in poorly insulated spas.
Try to imagine what our system of closed room insulation is like. We put the shell in a warm room with the outer walls completely insulate in 11 layers of warm air foil-foam-foil- dead air- foil hard high density foam board foil- dead air - foil-foam-foil (space age thermal insulation) and then we have another warm air chamber then the shell. The shell is coated with a IR (infrared) absorbing coating as part of the resins. This coating forces the heat from the equipment into the spa water by the laws of physics. There is nothing like this to compare with and it is VERY expensive to do this. It is both expensive in materials and in labor. It takes nearly 8 hours of hand labor working fast, to cut and fit all this material. It takes another hour to seal the upper spa shell to the frame. It takes another 1.5 hours to seal all the corners. (Other spa makers, tell me I am nuts for doing this. Except for one thing: we tested this with extreme conditions and for a whole winter with many testing probes on and in the spa.)
The outside relative humidity was 78% on average and the inside cabinet RH was 19%.. This causes a dry air chamber and any thermal engineer knows that dry air has very little heat transfer compared to "wet foam" as found in most spas. The cabinet is truly sealed now. If we ever have a leak there is no digging in foam to find it.
Why are HavenSpas so low priced for this level of quality? We are the factory, we sell only factory direct custom built to each customer.
Here is a video of our factory in Holland. That "thing in the box" that Martyn is showing is our energy meter we offer with our spas. It tells the whole story directly to you the customer in actual numbers on cost to own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn-VyWqMVyw
http://www.spaspecialist.com/DAIT.html
We have the documented lowest energy consumption of any spa.
We guarantee 4.5 KWH/day in standby ambient 10 degrees C or less. year round average use of the spa. That is less than 1/3 the cost for electricity over the Sundance® in winter in Colorado or Wyoming or Montana. There have been other tests done in Wyoming showing the same thing.
Haven has more usable seats. The seats all have useable therapy. There are six therapy seats in the Fallriver and four in the CameoTM. Go look!
(Water Delivery)
2-inch intake and 2 inch outlets. Old fashioned restrictive suctions. (No water flow PSI specifications. From research it is 160 GPM at 17 PSI. Please correct this if you know.) List price $421.42
Total water flow ; 320 Gallons per minute, and the heat energy is wasted out the vents.
The CameoTM uses diverter valves to fool people into thinking they have more therapy than in reality.
Read testimonial
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One speed pumps are cheaper and cost way less to manufacture. They are OK for some situations, but in spas we prefer two speeds for ultimate control.
There is no "Turbo Air" therapy in *Sundance® CameoTM.
This is a great loss for consumers.
Water Flow at 180 each pump GPM at 17 PSI. List price $896.50 and each. Stainless steel motor shafts outlast all the rest, sealed CE motors 60 HZ. Made in Italy, with American Wet end. Simply the best spa pumps made today.
Plus 1 each one speed 3 HP for the twin Master Jets. 160 GPM List $527.66
Total water flow available; 500 Gallons per minute. That is real therapy. And the heat energy is put back in the water. Stainless steel motor shafts outlast all the rest, sealed CE motors 60 HZ. Made in Italy, with American Wet end. Simply the best spa pumps made today.
Read About our Haven Plumbing
Pump 2
Circ Pump
Pump 1: 1- speed 2.5 HP Continuous
Pump 2: 1-speed 2.5 HP Continuous
Pump 3: NONE
Tiny frame quality pump these days.
The excessive use of diverter valves is needed to run with less horsepower and standard restrictive plumbing designs.
Pump 1: 2-speed 3.0 HP Continuous
4 BHP
Pump 2: 2-speed 3.0 HP Continuous, 4 BHP
2 speed, 3 HP Continuous.
4 BHP for twin Power Foot Massage Jets
Pluss turbo air boost on the therapy jets.
Pump One on low speed does the filtering, ozone and heating. Does double duty as both circ pump and therapy pump.
Most of the *Sundance® CameoTM jets are smaller than the the FallriverTM. Many spa companies use tiny jets to increase the jet count but it decreases therapy. Then in order to use the smaller HP water pumps they use diverter valves.
When people come into our showroom after testing the Cameo in Holland, they tell us that our ONE pump Fallriver with medium jets has better usable therapy than the two pump Cameo. Of course this is with 50 HZ. Our 16 Amp 230V 50HZ spa is more powerful in therapy than the Cameo two pump. This is because in Europe you need to design the plumbing with no restrictions as is physically (laws of physics) possible and we use Turbo Boosted water jets called "TurbomassageTM." That is what we do. Our American customers benefit from this. In Europe a common problem is the total house power available is 30AMP 230V single phase or three phase (is available for some). So to have therapy you have to design and test the spas for those conditions. (Not try to put in weaker pumps and send them to Europe.)
The results in Haven Spas is WAY over-sized and super clean plumbing to get every speck of power out of the pumps. You get the results of this engineering in the USA now from us. Only we use the 4 HP maximum pumps now, because the 5 HP is a waste of energy now.
If you like small jets on your back, then great. To me, they are only good on neck jets, leg jets and in specialized tightly spaced spine jets (as used in out PowerBathTM ) and in very specific trigger points of your back. If you want that then order a Fallriver with your specific jet needs. Haven Spas are not cookie cutter spas that you can only get one way. Every spa is custom made to order. Each spa travels the factory with a design book with details right down to the smallest parts.
When Edward R Murrow was interviewing Carl Sandburg in the 1950's he asked Carl ( a poet who is well known for his appreciation of equality for all humans.)
"What is the worst word in the English language?"
Carl Sandburg said: "exclusive" is the worst, ugliest word in the English language.
In all connotations it means you are "restricted" "limited" "reduced" "screwed" and all meanings are bad for anyone who is "excluded".
In this case you are excluded from buying parts at a decent price.
For some unknown reason this really "ugly" word is considered to be "good" in advertising. What does that tell you about modern advertising?
NONE Nothing.
(I was a trained Polarity Therapist in California in the 1980's.)
Sundance®, apparently from observation, needs to save money on labor. Automation is needed to make profits in a "modern" corporation with today's extremely costly overhead needed. (Like lawyers, advertising people, sales people, sales representatives, technical help people, IT people, website builders, dealers, and a huge glut of wages and overhead. And profits are needed for the owners. ) It costs money to have mold blocks removed by hand by human beings; the only way you can do this. The above water "collar" on Haven Spas, is simply the best and it keeps the spray contained. I can't imagine owning a spa without these neck blasters. We also hate loose filter lids after I watched a woman break a bone in her leg from leaning on one in a showroom of a well known brand. To make a solid safe filter housing requires a mold block and that has to be hand installed and removed each time the spa shell is molded. HavenSpas have a lot of modern "reverse molding" and that is the "state of the art in spa shells". Our lounger has a reverse molded side edge as well. This allows for a larger foot well and recesses the Master Massage jets back so they are not tripped on.
Diabetics NEED leg jet massage in order to increase circulation in legs. As a diabetic I know what the cause is. Diabetics have constricted capillaries from blood sugars causing the reduced surface area of capillaries opening. Capillaries swell from irritation of sugar on the walls of them. Capillaries are so small to begin with and reducing them causes "back pressure" and reduced return blood flow. Poor cell health results and can cause bad skin and weak muscles. Diabetics will often have terribly "itchy legs" after a soak because the blood is dying to move and "scratching and rubbing" is needed to help the blood to flow. It is a horrible sensation to have an itch so deep that nothing can help it. Strong water leg massage with Haven Spas does the trick!
If you are over 50 years old because of age, you need help with leg blood flow as well.
(Side note: We have a new 1Person spa with "boot like" leg recesses using nearly 40 jets on the legs and feet. It is only for medical practitioners now.)
The base jet in this seat of the Fallriver is a 1 inch whirlpool jet. This gives maximum lower back massage. There is no other spa company who does this.
There are 6 therapy seats in the Fallriver.
And it does not have two speed jet pumps.
The only "complaint" we've gotten was from someone concerned that the therapy was too strong (after owning a much weaker spa). He later changed his mind after realizing the benefits for over a month. This Fallriver "does the job" that other spas say they do.
There are no spas currently made today even similar in therapy to HavenSpas.
We did a survey of our hot tub owner's (we sold a different brand with diverted whirlpool jets) over a 8 year period and asked them what jets they don't use much. 80% said the "whirlpool". Those who used them would stand over them or try to position themselves with their lower back on them to use them. So, obviously we listened and we took them off the Haven Spas as a traditional jet and put them where they could do good. Instead of having to "try" to position oneself in front of them, all you do is sit down and turn on the best low back therapy there is.
You can get an optional "Power Jet" in the lower back of the captains chair for additional money.
The original idea of the "whirl pool" jet was to move the water around so that the warmer water touched your skin. If you set in still water the water directly on your skin cools if you move your body you will experience increase in warmth.
This is not needed, now with all the jets we have, but taking this WP idea to the maximum use for therapy is what we do.
The Master Massage jets are optional, but if we are trying to compare the Cameo to one of our products, in features and price we put the option on to bring our price up to still destroys the Cameo in a wet test.
1.5 HP air pump. It looks like Sundacne uses the same brand of air blower that we do, but doesn't seem to know how to use it or they can't without destroying energy efficiency. In order to use a blower with energy efficiency, you must not allow it to draw in any cold air from the outside during use. That is what we do with the Haven DAITTM system. By the way you can purchase all of the DAIT parts from any Electronics store. The design is "exclusive" the parts are not.
Who the heck wants to wait for jets, or worse to have only part of the seat function? We plumb the jet pumps to match the jets and use better pumps. Only on our cheapest models do we use a diverter, but it is done according to the manufacturer's specification and then reduced the water flow 50% to increase longevity and reduce the restriction to water flow, and ease of use. You can turn our diverter handles with one finger with the jet pump on full speed.
The top rail is impossible to set up on the edge of the shell to get out of the water and cool off. The filter lid is not capable of using as a seat and it is dangerous.
On Haven Spas we have larger upper flat areas on the top edge of the shell, so you can set up out of the water comfortably to cool down or just set there and have a chat. Without the loose filter lid you can set over the filter area very nicely. This is a feature most spas do not have.
The filter housing on Sundance is huge and wastes a lot of space.
Sale price after car dealership type of negotiation.
$12,560
Our everyday Sale price;
$12,688
Three times the quality for about the same money, without the hype.
(Please don't compare our SC or SE or Paramount or Vista spas against this lower quality product.)